# 71 - Dr. Jacob Kendall - Gerontologist, Social Worker, & Founder of Kendall Enterprises

In this episode, I will be speaking with global health gerontologist, social worker, and founder of Kendall Enterprises, Dr. Jacob Kendall. 

Dr. Kendall demystifies health care so people can be savvy patients and caregivers who master their health, healthcare experience, and optimize their wellness as well as the wellness of their loved ones. 

Dr. Kendall has a PhD in gerontology and has also formerly studied biology, social work, global public health, and theology. 

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Lemon Tree Coaching Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Allison Sukamelli. Each week I'll be taking the science of positive psychology, adding a little humor, and through evidence-based research, provide you with tools and strategies to help you live a life of peace and purpose. In this episode, I will be speaking with Global Health gerontologist, social worker, and founder of Kendall Enterprises, Dr. Jacob Kendall. But first, if you're interested, social media links, my website, and other information can be found at thhelimontreecoaching.com. You can click the link in the episode bio. And if you'd like some daily inspiration, you can follow me on Instagram at TheLemontree Coaching. I post quotes and make book recommendations from time to time. Currently in my reading stock this week, I have The Inner Work of Age by Connie Zweg, PhD, and Owl and Other Fantasies, Poems and Essays by Mary Oliver, winner of the National Book Award and the Pulitzer Prize for Poetry. And teachers, you may want to check out my TPT shop called The Lemon Tree by AKS. There are some free lessons you can download or explore the shop for more. I just uploaded a study guide for the movie Inside Out, so take a look. Again, my shop is The Lemont Tree by AKS on teacherspayteachers.com. And you can find a direct link in the podcast bio or my podcast website, thelemontreecoaching.com. Okay, with that said, let's get into this week's episode. Joining me today is Global Health gerontologist, social worker and founder of Kendall Enterprises, and the versatile social worker and former assistant professor in social work and global health studies, Dr. Jacob Kendall. Dr. Kendall domystifies healthcare so people can be savvy patients and caregivers who master their health, healthcare experience, and optimize their wellness as well as the wellness of their loved ones. Dr. Kendall has a PhD in gerontology and has also formerly studied biology, social work, global public health, and theology. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jacob Kindle.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah, thanks for the time to have a conversation, Dr. Sukameli. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah, thank you. And can you just start by sharing a few details about yourself and your professional journey or what inspired you to do the work that you do?

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah, for sure. I I typically say that there are two sets of points, two parts of my identity that are uh informative of just about everything that I do, at least professionally. And there's a personal stuff. I'm a husband, I'm a father, and I have various interests. But when it comes to professional, I'll give those two uh components. One is that I consider myself a true interdisciplinarian. Uh, and I've been searching for a term that applies outside of academia because interdisciplinary typically is used academia. I was raised up in academia. Um, and so I'm always looking for that term that basically means looking at any particular problem or issue from various perspectives. So give an example, my PhD is an interdisciplinary aging studies. I just say gerontology because that's too many syllables, and that's the definition of gerontology anyway. But okay, so in that program, it's a little bit different than another like a disciplinary PhD, because they said the main thing that we were going to come out of that program with a skill was to learn how to facilitate dialogue, uh, build bridges between disciplines, even ones that don't typically interact with one another. And I'm not talking about just cell biologists, molecular biologists, and geneticists working with one another. I learned about aging from the perspective of those things, in addition to cognitive neuroscience, anthropology, history, architecture, engineering, uh, public health, epidemiology, demography, it truly spans pretty widely. And that's one of my favorite things to do is to connect dots between different uh, you know, between these different points. Um, so that's that's one thing. Is it truly interdisciplinary? And the other thing that really informs what I do is I have had two open heart surgeries and I have lifelong experience navigating my own complex medical needs in our healthcare system that is overly complex and labyrinthine. And through all those experiences, I um I've grown tired of the inefficiencies there. Um and so I also identify as a chronic disease advocate. I I don't just have heart disease, I have other, I have various specialists that I have to see. And that combines well with uh aging and public health because age uh, you know, I'm only 38, but um it allows me the fact I've had two open heart surgeries, the fact I have chronic back pain allows me to relate to many of the issues that older adults have to deal with, uh, or caregivers uh and whatnot. So those two things really help to define me. The fact that I have a very diverse perspective, I prefer to be a jack of all trades rather than expert of none. And then the fact that I have my own complex medical needs.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Okay, so just curious, you said you're 38 years old now. Um, at what ages did you have your open heart surgeries?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, the the first one was uh 10 years ago. And then uh the the second one was just under six years later. So my late 20s and then my mid-30s. And yeah, I mean it was uh especially learning that I needed the second one was pretty devastating. Um, and this was uh you told me earlier that the next question is was I blindsided by it? That's a common question that I get. No, this was a congenital issue. It's aortic stenosis. I've had my valve replaced twice and it runs my mom's side of the family. Stenosis is not always a genetic factor, but in our family it is. I've had several family members who've who've had these surgeries. So if they've known about it since age three, I've gotten an echo every single year since then. It's possible that it could have always been mild, but mine got severe and I had to have it replaced.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

So, because of that experience, even as in your younger years, what specific inefficiencies were you noticing in the healthcare system at that time? Or what have you come to notice going through all of this? Because that's a that's a lot at a young age.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yeah, yeah. Um well, I'm not gonna sit here and say, well, well, first of all, if we zoom out, and this is this is where the interdisciplinary starts to come into play, that the I I often use uh four-dimensional thinking as a way of processing all of this. One of those dimensions is zooming out, and we have to we have to acknowledge that among all post-industrial countries, among all wealthy countries, and even compared to some middle-income countries, the US does not perform well because we spend way more than any other country by far. But we we have among the lowest life expectancy uh among uh uh wealthier countries, and even some middle-income countries have surpassed us. Like we're not getting the best bang for our buck. And knowing those things, having been trained in public health and global health, I can easily see how the dots connect and how they trickle down to the individual level. Uh, and so I'm not gonna sit here and say that uh the ACA Obamacare is not perfect and it has some issues, but one thing that that has been meaningful for me is the protections for people with pre-existing conditions, because before that, I have been denied coverage, even before I had my surgeries, because I had this pre-existing condition. And that, like, whenever people say that they want to get rid of that, I'm like, there's no way you have chronic disease. There's no way that you do. And and people, the one of the common arguments with wanting to uh not have some form of socialized or national healthcare. We're one of very few industrial countries that does not have that in full force. And one of the typical arguments is like, well, I'll lose my autonomy and be able to choose my own providers. And I have two thoughts that come to mind there. One is that uh there's no way that you have any kind of family members or yourself have complex medical needs, because I don't think that you would say that. And two, the whole thing about having uh autonomy to choose your provider is an illusion anyway. And a lot of that goes back to health insurance. You know, I used to get angry and upset of at my providers and at medical offices, but then I just started having conversations with them. I started realizing that the problem really is what's above them, health insurance companies and the tripartite medical system, medical industrial complex that we have. And I have conversations with my providers and the people who work in the front office processing the billing and their nurses, and they're all equally frustrated as I am with health insurance companies. And so you can't possibly see those issues unless you zoom out a bit. Um, and I mean, it doesn't take that many times to have to deal with health insurance. You know, echocardiograms and tests like that are expensive. And you just you don't have to get too many of them as an adult before you realize wow, there's some problems here. There's some problems. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um, and then specifically, what type of problems are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 9:09

And again, sorry if I'm asking obvious questions, but no, no, not at not at all. Uh, I mean, I mean, we don't have time to go into all of those now because that's just how complicated it is, for sure. Um, so I don't want to paint it as just some simple, some simple picture, but I mean, at the end of the day, and I don't think I'm stating an opinion when I say the following. At the end of the day, if healthcare is run as a part of the free market system, then we have to acknowledge that human bodies are going to be treated as commodities. And pretty much anyone who knows about our system is has to, they're going to acknowledge that we do not have a preventative system. We fix problems after they arise because that is what the incentive of health insurance companies in the pharmaceutical industry is. That's what they want to do. They need Americans to be sick in order to function. That is just a fact because it's a free market uh system, the for-profit system, and their number one bottom line is having a profit, and they make tons of money off Americans being sick and taking medicines.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah. And again, this is a loaded question, but and it's so complicated, like you've said already. But what can we do to change that? Are there any suggestions or any starting point? I know it's so complex and so loaded, and I'm searching for answers myself with some of the same frustrations.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah. I have a couple of responses to that, and they're tied to one another. First of all, I just want to completely be be upfront and acknowledge this to people who are listening. And any other times I've talked about this, that I believe that healthcare at the highest level is an intractable problem. I don't think that we're ever going to convince insurance companies, that the administrators of insurance companies to stop loving money. It's not going to happen. So the other point that I want to mention is because I helped demystify health care, and I have to do I have to do that at the individual level. So if I'm here talking about these grand issues here, if someone is dealing with their own medical care or they're a caregiver helping their loved one care do uh handle their own medical care or make sure they take their meds and whatnot, they don't give a damn about what's going on at the highest levels. They just want help from how can they, how can their own lives be better? And so I think if we tackled at a more individualistic local level, then there could be some differences. And so one of the things that I do is over the years of having so many experiences as a patient and and occasionally helping loved ones navigate their their care, is I've just kind of learned some tips and strategies along the way that help me squeeze more juice out of my medical care, right? And I think that it we can make a difference if we're working at that level. Okay. And possibly a little bit higher than that. Um, I think that that we can make some differences. But it but the more and more that you go up and up and up, at some point you hit a ceiling, you're not, I just don't have any faith that that we're gonna be able to solve that problem because it's a it's a huge monster. Um, and again, we're not gonna convince the people who control the industry to just stop loving money. They're they're not going to.

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SPEAKER_00 12:55

Right, right. So going back to a minute, um, at the individual level, then do you have any advice for someone who's either been in

(Cont.) # 71 - Dr. Jacob Kendall - Gerontologist, Social Worker, & Founder of Kendall Enterprises

SPEAKER_00 13:05

these different struggles with the healthcare system or caring for a loved one? Like what advice would you have for the individual who's trying to cope with this and deal with this on a daily basis?

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah. Um, well, I'll give another example of how I still think while while what I just said is true, that at the end of the day, you know, I think that I can that we can make some difference if we're thinking on the individual or family level. I still think that there is some benefit to at least to a certain degree learn to zoom out a little bit. So let me give you an example for myself. Okay. I uh live in one of the fastest growing counties in the country in southern Alabama. It's across the Bay from Mobile and it's called the Eastern Shore. And there are a few cities that comprise that that are a lot of people are just moving here. Uh they they it's a desirable place to live, right? You can't drive more than five minutes in any direction and deny that because you always see a neighborhood going up or an apartment complex going up. Okay. So when I first moved here, I always immediately when I move somewhere, I get right on it, establishing myself with the providers that I need because my health depends on that. My wife doesn't have nearly as many chronic issues to deal with, so she's a little bit slower with that. Probably what's more average for, you know, uh the average person. And so a good example is I went ahead and found my uh primary care provider, which is about 10 minutes away from our house. And then a few months later, she's like, okay, I'm gonna establish myself as well. And she went there and they were no longer accepting patients. Okay. They're not accepting patients because the area is growing too. They're having to close down the offices. And and over the uh course of uh several months, as I established myself with these providers and I went to appointments with them, it there was a pattern. I had to schedule way out in advance, many, many months in advance, and uh various uh things like that. And at first, you know, in that kind of situation, it can be really easy to get frustrated with the providers themselves. It's so easy because American individualism means that we focus so much on the level of the individual. And I I even wanted to get frustrated with them, but then I'm like, okay, let me just let me just start connecting some dots here. And I suspected that the uh rapid population growth here was definitely an issue. I mean, last year we had a water shortage. There's some rule in this city that we can't have uh anything over three stories tall. And so that makes building larger hospitals or building parking decks difficult, right? If we had those kinds of rules. And I just don't think that this city has the infrastructure to support this population growth. And so I've gotten to the point now where like point blank, I ask each of my providers, listen, just be honest with me. My wife and I have talked about moving away from this area. One of the reasons, not the only reason, one of the reasons is because I have concerns moving forward about being able to access healthcare with the burgeoning population. And at least half of them will say, Yes, I think you were justified in thinking that. So a strategy that I have is don't be afraid to ask pinpoint questions to your providers. There's this idea that medical providers, uh, like you just trust everything that they say. Uh, I think it's especially true with with uh, you know, back in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, I think that there was this idea that that's the case. Um, because I I've talked to my parents, I've talked to my grandparents about that. My mom has told me many times, well, if that's what the doctor says, then it must be right. I'm like, eh, let's back up a little bit, right? Um, and so I I've learned to be assertive and be a self-advocate for myself. And if there's something that I want to know, if there's a question that I have, then I'm just gonna ask them. And most of them appreciate, you know, when you're up front with them. And I I think we need to get past the whole mindset of, oh, well, I I don't want to push my doctor too much. Well, I don't think I should ask this question. I I just disagree with that. I just disagree with it. So be okay with being assertive, with asking the questions that you want to ask. And it doesn't have to be directly tied to uh medical care. Like I said, I've asked many of my providers, am I is my concern justified that the growing population here is is going to be uh, you know, am I justified in being concerned about that? And I've had some really enlightening conversations with them about that. So that's one that's one tip I would say is uh be okay with just asking them these questions, right? And going back to the point, another thing is uh going back to the point of not assuming that that they know everything. I mean, I'm in I'm in a support group on Facebook for people who've had my same kind of surgery and who are also on blood centers. I've learned just as much from them about what it's like as I have for my providers. Uh and that's there's nothing wrong with that. Health is not just medical. That's another of the dimensions. Health is not just medical, it's it's cultural, it's social, it's familial, right? Uh so we can't just rely on medicine to to get those answers. So there are a couple of ideas. Is that does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think it's really important to not be afraid to ask questions. I think I'm a nightmare when I go to the doctor because I will ask all those questions. And we tend to feel like sometimes, you know, they're rushing through the evaluation or whatever's going on, and you feel like you're not supposed to or they don't have time to answer your questions. And usually I find for myself I spend more time in the waiting room than I do with the actual doctor. So I think that's also why I don't hesitate to ask all the questions because it was hard work to even get in the room with them. And some of the Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, that's why whenever I think of a question like, oh, I need to ask this to my doctor the next time I go in, even if it's months away, I have a note in my app. Uh in the I have notes in my in the notes app in my iPhone where I just list out all these questions. So it makes it more efficient. But also if I can find out the answer to that question, let's say from the Facebook support group, then that's maybe I don't have to ask that the next time. Um, but another thing that I do is I try, and it's not always possible, but I found that it's more possible than more often than not to find out the ways and to utilize the ways that it's possible to have engagement with that office, even when you're not in a visit. So because I advocated for this, I have one of my providers, I have his work cell phone number and I can text him and he responds. For another of my providers, I have the same thing for two of his nurses and they respond. Uh, some of my providers have uh a patient portal and I use that. I send the messages and get these get these responses. And so there are just extra little things like that can end up making a big difference. Um, you know, it's not gonna make all the difference, but it can make some difference, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, absolutely. No, that sounds amazing. Did you ask for their cell phone numbers or was it something that they were offering up on their own? Because I feel like not all providers would be like, oh yeah, here you go. Talk to me anytime.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Most of the time I didn't have to ask for it. But it happened so consistently that I've learned that I I guess the demeanor that I have, like they can see that I can talk about these issues in a uh an engaging, a little bit of an intellectual way. They can tell that I'm kind of person who asks good questions. You know, learning how to ask good questions is a skill. Learning how to be a self-advocate is a skill to work on these things. And I maybe, maybe they I'm just speculating here. Maybe they realize that you know what, this is gonna go a whole lot better if I just give him uh the the opportunity to contact me in this way. And I make sure not to abuse those, like I don't just text all the time. You have to be strategic because if you are, if you are someone who uh becomes known as a trouble patient, then they will not take your calls and they they really will do that, they will be very uh uh less forthcoming with you. So you do have to find that balance. But um, if if you present the demeanor of someone who's gonna be assertive, who can engage with these issues, these topics, that whatever your medical issues are, and you ask good questions, then I think more often than not, you're gonna have the means to you're gonna have things like that. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yeah, absolutely. And then so does that tie back into what you mentioned of before about the interdisciplinary, four-dimensional critical thinking and being more insightful and enlightened. And for the listeners, can you define what four-dimensional critical thinking is and maybe what that comprises of?

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah, sure. I can't promise that jumping into this topic is not going to seem like a large leap, but I I will answer the question. Um, it's hard for me to establish this in a few minutes. I've given you a couple of the dimensions. One is zooming out, it's it's like space-time, three dimensions of space, one dimension of time. So the phrase that I usually give in terms of healthcare, I think you can apply this to any set of issues, but I talk about health. That's what I'm passionate about. So in terms of healthcare, I say that medical is more than individualistic, it's more than medical, which I've already talked about. It's more than here, and it's more than now. Okay. And so when I say it's more than individualistic, what I mean is we have to be willing to zoom up and zoom out and see, okay, there are these systemic level factors that are going on here. Okay. It's more than medical, which I've already Talked about like sometimes that expertise comes from other places. We have to see your health as being more than what biomedicine tells us that it is. Okay. Um, and then it's more than here, as in we really and I've kind of talked about this with the fact that I live in the fastest growing county. So one of the things that um, you know, I've I've told my wife very frankly, like I have concerns what this is gonna look like five, 10 years from now. I have these complex needs, but if I can't see a provider uh, you know, immediately when I need one, I'm I'm at higher risk of stroke and a bleeding incidence because I'm on uh I'm on blood thinner, right? And if the ER is too full, like what's that gonna mean for me? That could be the difference between life and death. Um, and so I've told her, like, I think we need to have a few cities that we're considering moving to if if if we have to do that pretty pretty soon. And so we've been researching some cities and what healthcare access is like in those places. It's not the same, it's not even. Um, but she also you know has her needs as well. And so if you combine everything, basically that means it would be very difficult for us to find all of our needs in any city that's smaller than a decently sized medium city, right? And most of those places, from what I found, at least in the southeast, where all of our family is, have similar issues with growing, rapidly growing populations. So medical is not is not just here. I think we have to consider, um, especially if you're thinking about moving, where what does it look like in in these other places? And it's more than just now as well. I think we have to think about it over the span of of our uh our own lifespan and and historically. So to give you an example, um, as a gerontologist, most or many people whom I tell, I'm studying aging, they're like, Oh, you're trying to figure out how to get us to live longer because we're so obsessed with avoiding death. Um and I'm like, well, hold on a minute. It's more about quality than it is about quantity, right? And I think focusing on quality will actually help the quantity issue. But related to that is we are so it's so uh it seems ironic, but I guess the two go together. In addition to being obsessed with avoiding death, we're also just terrible, we're pissed poor about preparing for our health futures. We do not prepare for retirement well, we do not prepare for uh the disposition of our bodies after we die. We don't uh we don't always uh have like living wills and these other things like that, life insurance and then making these plans until the it until the issue arises, right? And we I think that we need to be having more conversations with the expectation that in the future we are going to have to deal with these problems. There's no one who's unaffected by aging, there's no one who's unaffected by chronic disease. It's just impossible. Statistically, it's not gonna happen. And we should find a way to, we need to learn how to begin having these conversations at much earlier times. So health is more than just now. We need to have a longer, more lifespan perspective on that. Does that help to kind of show the different the four different dimensions?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah, absolutely. And you probably saw me jotting down a bunch of questions as you were talking, as they were coming to me. I'm like, we're probably not gonna have enough time for all of them. But um, you mentioned something about having a will and all of that kind of stuff. At what age should someone you know write up a will? Like, how early should we be preparing for these kinds of things? Because often people do don't like talking about those topics, death, wills, all of that kind of stuff. But how early in life should people be concerned about these things?

SPEAKER_01 26:09

I I think early adulthood, definitely no later than soon after you get married. And my wife and I don't have all the things that we need, but we'll we've at least had conversations like who would care for our children? If you don't have it written down, then you don't make those, you don't have no any decision-making power, but who would care for our children in the event that we're not here? One thing we actually did do is very soon after we got married, we got life insurance policies for ourselves, for the sake of one another and for our children. And and a little funny aside, uh completely serious, halfway funny, is that without the issues that I have, my wife's life insurance policy is way friendlier than mine. Frankly, I'm surprised I even got one in the first place uh because of my disease, my my uh history with heart disease and and whatnot. And but they did give me one, found a company that was willing to give me a policy, but it was only only for 22 years. And so I called them up. Um, and I I'm I think I'm I had I tried to have a little bit of a humorous tone. I mean, if you can't joke about your own mortality, you can't joke about anything. But I he he he did not respond in a humorous way. I'm like, so you basically expect me to die 22 years from now. And he uh he's like, Yeah, we could we couldn't insure you beyond that because you're a medical history. Okay, so you expect me to die in 22 years. I was partly joking, but he's like, his response every time was like, Well, we we just can't insure you beyond that point. Which which is you know, I understand that. Um, and so I always joke that I hope that when I call them back in 22 years to re-up my policy, it's the same guy who answers the phone. Um, but you know, they don't account for every single thing, they can't possibly account for every single variable that that affects my life expectancy. And you have to keep that in mind. But but to answer your question, the the earliest in your adulthood, the better that you plan for for some of these things. Go ahead and start saving for retirement. I mean, what we're facing right now is baby boomers did not save up for the retirement. And one of the reasons is because they didn't expect to live this long. Uh they didn't expect to live into their 80s and 90s, which is which is what's happening right now. But we have to do better at that. Go ahead and start doing that with your first job. Go ahead and be thinking about protecting the people who survive you after you die. And if you don't do it before, then do it at marriage, um, quite frankly. Yeah. Uh and most people aren't going to. We we're just a really, really bad at planning for crises. We just we just don't do it, but we should.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Yeah, people have a hard time talking about those kinds of things. And so with that in mind, uh what age do you think people should begin talking to their children about death and you know, these things that we're most likely gonna have to face or definitely face in our lifetimes? What is the youngest age you would approach that? Any tips on how to approach that with kids?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah, I've taught a couple different courses on dying and death, and you can't you cannot responsibly do so. Most people die in older age, and so that's gonna be a large focus. But you can't responsively talk about dying and death without talking about the exceptions to that rule and kids experiencing death of a sibling of a parent, whatever, is uh, or or school shootings, whatever, like they're going to be exposed to it. I'm not a child psychologist, and I'm not gonna sit here and say I know the ideal age or how to approach that. What I do know though is in a general sense, I think that uh embracing our mortality, and this may be counterintuitive, but I fully I'm convicted of it, embracing our own mortality, being willing to discuss it in general, is uh going to actually increase our uh quantity of life. Um so I don't know if there's an ideal age. I I don't feel equipped to answer that, but I mean, children do encounter death pretty early on. I've rarely met anyone who is in their 20s and hasn't attended a funeral. I do occasionally, I'm like, whoa, that's that's crazy. Um, but I don't know the ideal age. Um, that's not my area of study.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Okay, okay. Thank you for answering that. Yeah, it was just something that popped into my head while you were talking. And then also in connection with like the wills and the healthcare systems and living certain places, are you aware of any of the best places to retire or places you should avoid? I've heard, you know, like chatter about oh, never retire here, definitely leave here, or whatever the case may be. Any input on that?

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Yeah, most of what I know is just some cities in the southeast. I mean, if it weren't for our families, I think we would consider, we'd have a we'd cast a wider net. But I know we've done research on like uh Nashville, the Atlanta area, the suburbs, not the not the city, uh God know, uh Charlotte and places like that. Um and you know, it's it's interesting because the other fastest growing county in Alabama is it's either Madison or Huntsville. It's in the very north in the Huntsville area, but it's really good for families in particular. And it's hard to find places that rank really high. My wife found this website, I don't remember what it is, but it like ranks cities on a number of different factors healthcare access, what's good for families, what's good for stress, and these different things. And it's hard to find one that ranks high on all of them. Um, and especially ones that will continue ranking high on all of them because as the population grows, like those other factors change. Uh, so a lot of it's going to come down to what your particular preferences are, where you are in life. I know that there are a lot of it's very older adult-centric in, I think, the Lakeland, Florida area, a lot of older adults moving to Arizona as well for Sedonas like that. So where you are in life doesn't matter. Uh yeah, that's that's probably about as specific as I can get. We're only in the early stages of researching some of these places, things, places that we think we could enjoy living, and do they have adequate health care and these other amenities that we want? And it's uh and another, I mean, I I can't deny that that uh I don't how do I put this? Because I don't want to get into a discussion about ideology. We live in a very polarizing time, but the fact of the matter is that none of the southern states, North Carolina is probably the closest to being an exception, but none of the southern states, and a lot of it has to do with politics, come close to being nationally in the top 10 for healthcare access and some of these other things. And we cannot responsibly or reasonably deny that um politics has a lot to do with that, right? They're the the the Southeast is very conservative. I live in Alabama, which its constitution hasn't changed much since I think uh what 1899 or something like that. Uh those are factors as well. Um that that cannot be denied. So that you know, none of these issues are simple.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Yeah. Well, thanks for that input. Very interesting. Okay, and then I'm just curious if there are any bad recommendations that you hear in your profession or area of expertise. Like things people should avoid, not listen to.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

There are there are a couple of different areas, and I'm I'm personally affected by both of them. One, I I was probably at the tail end of the idea of like I had a lot of people when I was in my high school years say it doesn't matter what your education costs, the degree is going to be worth it. No, educational loans really suck ass. Uh and high school students need to have a better understanding of that as they make their decisions about college. I think that that is getting better. Uh, and another thing that's thankfully getting better is we're changing the assumption, we're changing the narrative that you even have to go to college in the first place in order to be successful. I I don't like that meritocratic ideal personally. And that's coming from someone who has multiple master's degree and a doctor. So I hope it rings loudly when I say that. So I think that that is that aspect is changing. The other one is business ownership. I'm a business owner, and I definitely wish there were some things that I knew then that I that I do know now. Um, and that's how life works. I mean, in 2020 is is what is it, what is the retrospective is always 2020 or what whatever the phrase is.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Hindsight.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Hindsight's always 2020. So that's just how life is. So I don't have regrets, but um, a lot is is really rapidly changing with with businesses. It's it's changing just about every day. For example, I don't know the exact numbers here, so I'm just making stuff up to paint a general picture. But five years ago, Instagram ads probably worked really well for marketing your online business. I don't know that that's that's the case anymore, right? It's it's constantly changing. And there's this huge blow up of like online coaches, for example. But because there's this huge blowup, the market becomes increasingly saturated. And you you have to you need to know what you're getting into, whatever it is you're getting into. Um, and I I as I understand it, I think millennials kind of started this trend with more people starting businesses at younger ages. And I really love people seeing being, I really love seeing people be innovative and entrepreneurial at younger ages. I think that that's cool. But just know that a lot of other people are getting those ideas too. And because of social media, because of AI, it's a really uh volatile target moving around quite a lot. Um, so do your homework, I guess I would say. Um, that that may seem like it's not directly tied to healthcare, but I would say that it's tied to financial health and all these different dots connect. None of these things happen in a vacuum, right? So, yeah, those are two things that I would say come to mind because you're gonna get a lot of people out there saying, Oh, yeah, become an online coach, I'll teach you how to do it. Hand over $10,000 and you'll definitely be successful. Uh let's let's pump the brakes a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah, yeah. So you kind of already answered this next question, but um, what advice would you give to a smart driven college student or maybe somebody that wasn't even going to college, about to enter the real world? So you just said do your homework if you're planning to start a business. Is there anything else you'd want to do?

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yeah, and what I do with the versatile social worker, um, because I have a couple different businesses, is one is speaking on chronic disease and healthcare. And what and that's um my my website is Jacobevanskindle.com for that. And then I have another with a versatile social worker. And and I've mostly done it with social workers just because I had that degree and it's a huge market, but basically um, social workers who are wanting to pivot to another to to re-market their transferable skills. And these days I would say it's not a res a good resume, it's not enough anymore. You have to learn to build your personal brand, right? And uh a ridiculous networking, ridiculous amount of networking, being very good at that. I I think the kinds of skills that are gonna help people be successful are changing. I wish that they taught financial literacy, social media literacy. Um, why not a course on dying and death, on will living wills and caregiving and all these other topics. I wish they taught those in high school because they're incredibly practical. So the advice that I would give is uh, I mean, yeah, do your homework is a part of it, but um the the skills for marketing yourself, and what I help most of my clients, most of whom are social workers with, is you know, how to market their skills. They apply to any industry. I just focus on social workers, like I said. Um and so you know, be prepared to do that, be razor sharp, precise. Everything that you do in college, whether it's being president of a club or go be a volunteer, like you're gonna have to prove that you did a good job at that. So take notes on what were your accomplishments with that. Did you win a grant? Did you start this program? Um, and whatever you can quantify, the better. And that's just the world that we live in, right? Uh be prepared to do that. See it as you marketing yourself. A very common response I give is like, well, I don't want to brag on myself. You know what? I don't like doing that either. But if you want to succeed out there, you're gonna have to be willing to say, hey, look at me, I can do these things. Just just just just deal with that. Uh, and obviously do it in a non-arrogant manner. And like I already said, networking is important too. Go out there and network like hell. Um, and so you know, it's it's it's a changing market. So it's it's all about building your personal brand, establishing yourself as a thought leader, but also recognizing that like you're not gonna do that right out of the gate.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

You're not gonna do that right out of the gate, and that's okay. Build build along the way. Done is better than perfect, you don't have to be perfect, just start putting yourself out there.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Right. Absolutely. Okay, with that said, is are there maybe one or two or three people that perhaps you've personally learned from uh in the last year or so or the last few years? Anyone that you followed, or maybe one to three books that have greatly influenced your life? I know it's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah, and you know, I I have to remind anyone with questions like this that as I say it, I was raised in academia. So for your first question, I give a lot of credit to my dissertation chair for my PhD program. And I consider I still consider him a mentor, uh, but he was an excellent, excellent advisor. And if you're going to a PhD program, I didn't know this beforehand, I just got really lucky. But if you're going to a PhD program, one of the most important decisions you can make is who's going to be your dissertation chair. And I was really appreciative of the fact that although he went the traditional academic route, and there's this, there's just this elitism in academia, though. Well, if you get a PhD, your goal should be to go get a tenure-track position, especially in an R1 institution. Screw that. Uh, I don't think that that's true. And he was supportive of whatever I want to do, just do it well. Um, and and I really, really appreciate that. So I appreciate people who are they they don't follow the status quo. And you know, just whatever you go and do, do it well, do it with with integrity. Um, and so even though he's still an academia and I'm not, I still think that I've I've learned a whole lot from him, and he's still he's still very supportive of me. Um and then I'm sorry, what was your second question?

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Oh, any, I know I asked multi-layered questions. Um, I do that. It's a habit, sorry. Um, are there any books? And it doesn't even have to be related to healthcare. Any books you'd recommend to people at any age that have really influenced you or you think everyone could read?

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I'll put the super nerdy academic ones aside because that's where that's where my brain is. I'm just like intellectually, I'm I'm super nerdy with things like that. So I love reading about animal behavior, evolution, quantum mechanics. So I won't mention any of those. I'll mention two. Um, one that's slightly nerdy and one that I think is really, really uh more functionally useful. So the first one is probably I would probably consider it the most impactful book that I've ever read. Um is Conciliance by E.O. Wilson, Edward Wilson, a sociobiologist. That's where I started to develop my own ideas of how all of knowledge is tied to itself. So he I don't like the siloization of academia. And that's one of the reasons I left academia. And then I get out into the business world and realize it's the exact same way. Um, I don't think that all these different industries or all these different disciplines should be siloed from one another, but that's how they are, right? And so he talks about the continuum of knowledge from philosophy to mathematics to chemistry and natural sciences to the social sciences and to the and to the humanities and how they all um there's a continuum. And I I agree with that. So I think that that is a is a pretty eye-opening book. If not that one, then at least read books that don't go so far down a rabbit hole of one particular perspective that they lose sight of the fact that there are other perspectives. So just be really, really careful about that because there's a lot of pop science out there that these writers are extremely good at convincing you of something. Um, but if you don't realize that they have a particular bent or they're using one lens to look at an issue, then you know, you may not realize that there are other perspectives. And that gets me to the second one. It's called Range by David Epstein. And it really spoke to my heart because the general, the basic gist of that book is that people who think like I do, where they have various interests, uh and new ones all a new one each year, a new one each decade, and they think from an interdisciplinary perspective, actually have a lot of value in the world. Um, even in a world where things are siloed off and everyone tells you to have one thing that you do really well, one audience that you do it to, and be an expert in that one thing, even in that kind of environment, people who think more like me is like that can be a value and learn how to sell that. So I would say those are two that I would I would recommend.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

All right, awesome. And if you'll let me ask you kind of a personal question, I always like a weird question in there. Sure. Um what is an unusual habit or an absurd thing that you love? It doesn't have to make sense to anyone except for you, and you can interpret that however you wish. You can take a minute. So, what is an unusual habit or an absurd thing that you love?

SPEAKER_01 43:39

I was enjoying reading about uh animal behavior, not enough. Uh I really like bird watching. I like bird watching, which I get from majoring in biology as an undergrad. Uh biology is my original and true love. I have many days of each month where I regret not just going all in on biology. Uh but bird watching is become birding is becoming more and more popular. So I don't consider that to be absurd. Um, you know, I if you have a conversation with me on on films on certain days that I can come across as being very snobbish. I love watching all kinds of movies, but I also love the really ridiculous, silly ones. Um, I saw a post on Facebook the other day, someone saying that I think it's called Under Paris. I'd never heard of it. It's in French, and it's about a giant shark that gets into the Sine River. And he was like, This is the most ridiculous shark movie I've ever seen. And I had two. Thoughts. First of all, is it more ridiculous than Shark Nado, which I also like? But a ridiculous Shark movie, I'm in. I want to see that. So it's like I guess I have these uh seemingly polar opposite love for for film and whatnot, but whatever, I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

That's awesome. I love that answer. Okay, and with respect to your time, is there anything else uh about your work that you'd like to share that we haven't covered? Specific services you want to let listeners know about, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Yeah, I I guess, and I'll mention that at the very, very end, but I I just want to try to put a nice bone on this entire conversation. Sometimes I I I know I go, it seems like I'm going off in tangents. All these things, the dots are connected in my mind. So what I want to say is your nerdy interests, your hobbies, your quirks, plus your professional interests, your passions, whatever, like all of this helps you be a better person. And I think that my varied interests and my interdisciplinary training help me to be able to relate to a larger array of people. So every every single thing makes you who you are. It's why I don't put my degrees after my name on LinkedIn, because my education is not the only thing that defines me. And in certain moments, it's not the most important thing. I can't put father or husband after my name. Like, why do I want to put my education? Like my degrees, uh, I'm not awesome because I have my degrees. My degrees are awesome because I have them. That's what I try to tell people. Um, so I just want to encourage people like all of these things are what make you you, right? As far as reaching me, hit me up on LinkedIn, Jacob Evans Kindle. And uh, if you're looking for some career coaching, I have the versatile social worker, which again I've helped non-social workers as well. And then uh, you know, for any interest in having to become speaker, do workshops or anything related to healthcare, then I have Jacob EvansKindle.com.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

All right. Well, it's been a pleasure, Dr. Kendall. I appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Yeah, same to you. I've been enjoying the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Okay, so there you have it. In this episode, I had a wide-ranging conversation with Dr. Jacob Kindle, founder of Kindle Enterprises and the versatile social worker. You can find direct links to Dr. Kendall's website and contact information in the episode bio. Other important resources include the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline, dial or text 988 in the United States, or 000, the national emergency telephone number in Australia. If you are interested and would like to receive daily inspiration via social media, you can join the Lemon Tree Coaching community on Instagram at the Lemon Tree Coaching. I post meaningful quotes for my weekly readings and recommend books from time to time. So check it out and see if it's for you. Teachers, you may want to check out my TPT store called The Lemon Tree by AKS. There are some free lessons you can download or explore the shop for more. Again, my shop is The Lemon Tree by AKS on teacherspayteachers.com. You can find a direct link on my website, thelimontreecoaching.com, or Instagram at thelemontreecoaching. And thank you for listening and have a great week. This is Dr. Alison Sukamele saying, it's been a pleasure sharing this space with you. And until next time, have fun, be safe.